to meat or not to meat....

[wolfscalissi]

Ok, lets dicuss vegetarianism. The first grave precept says Affirm life, do not kill. if we choose to continue to dwell on this plane we must kill in order to sustain ourselves. here lies the rub. even if you are a vegetarian you are taking life to sustain your self the pesticides used on the plants killed the bugs, the land cleared to plant the food took homes and likely lives from small animals etc. If you still eat meat then we can stop right there. don't get me wrong I'm not advocating either way I just want to hear what you have to say. I'm going to post a couple of threads from enlightened beings that shed light to both sides.
Cheri Hubers take which is very heart wrenching. I sat at a seshin with her and she is an amazing practitioner

one less act... (http://www.cherihuber.com/onelessact.html) (this is a link, a long read. at least read the last paragraph or two if nothing else. these hit home the hardest)

next is Masao Abe an really amazing comparative religions philosopher and Buddhist by choice It is about compassion he said

"It is the law of the Buddha," he said, "not to destroy life. If so, one cannot eat. The notion that it is justifiable to kill plants but not animals is an illusion of (warning big word ahead!) anthropocentrism"*

*n : an inclination to evaluate reality exclusively in terms of human values*

"but if we do not eat, we destroy ourselves, still violating the Buddhist law. Thus the significance of the gassho, the pressing together of the palms,before partaking of a meal.One destroys life so as not to destroy life, but one does so only at the ultimate heartfelt limit." (from the text of Masao Abe a Zen Life of Dialogue)

so there you are some seriously tough thinking to do. I myself fall closer to Cheri Hubers side from an anger standpoint. realizing that by taking small steps in our own eating habits we could really make a huge change in all of this. thank you for your consideration of this topic

^gassho^

[littlegrasshopper]

A very interesting, provoking article. The facts at the end are harsh to my stomach, ouch.

The argument I've heard against abstaining from meat is the basic food chain scheme--the spiders eat the ants and the mice eat the spiders, et cetera. I think that there are good points in both sides of the argument.

But you're right, if we don't eat, we destoy ourselves. I personally am one for moderation. I like steak and chicken breast; I think there are valuable vitamins and minerals there that, yes you can get them in a pill, but you can't grill a vitamin supplement. But I also like green beans and salads and carrots. If I have meat in a meal, I try to have one or two vegetables and some fresh bread. The middle path, I suppose.

After skimming through this article, I will reconsider my eating habits--though I just can't part myself with a steak on the grill. (Funny that I gave up Christianity a lot easier!)

Thank you for posting a link to such a good article, I appreciate it.

Jules

[thebatman]

Someone should tell the bears to leave all those salmon alone! Sorry, Wolf, don't take offense at my sarcasm...I can't help it.
I fall on the carnivore side of the spectrum here. Nothing is truly destroyed. The fish and cows become part of me (along with lots and lots of broccoli and green tea plants).

[thebatman]

Hey Grasshopper...maybe christianity was easier to give up because it isn't a natural part of being human like being a carnivore. I could be off-track here but I think your statement has SOME kind of meaning.

[Guest]

" By not eating beef– and other farm animals as well–you:

save massive amounts of water – 3,000 to 5,000 gallons of water for every pound of beef you avoid,

avoid polluting our streams and rivers better than any other single recycling effort you do,

avoid the destruction of topsoil,

avoid the destruction of tropical forest,

avoid the production of carbon dioxide. (Your average car produces 3 kg/day of CO2. To clear rainforest to produce beef for one hamburger produces 75 kg of CO2. Eating one pound of hamburger does the same damage as driving your car for more than three weeks);

reduce the amount of methane gas produced. (I imagine the next bumper sticker: stop farts, don’t eat beef);

reduce the destruction of wildlife habitat, and
help to save endangered species.

That’s a pretty good day’s work, for just what you don’t put in your mouth. "

"How Our Food Choices can Help Save the Environment", by Steve Boyan, PhD
http://www.earthsave.org/environment/foodchoices.htm

[Guest]

So... a carnivore, an omnivore, an herbivore, and jeffry dahmer walk into a market... which one walks out with less negative karma?

[federica]

So... a carnivore, an omnivore, an herbivore, and jeffry dahmer walk into a market... which one walks out with less negative karma?


........Who's Jeffry Dahmer?

[ZenLunatic]

A cannibal serial-killer in the states.

[federica]

Oh, yum..... pass the bucket and napkins, please......!

[littlegrasshopper]

Hey Grasshopper...maybe christianity was easier to give up because it isn't a natural part of being human like being a carnivore. I could be off-track here but I think your statement has SOME kind of meaning.

Seeing as Christianity is based around stories written by man, I can understand where you're going with that.

Jules

[Guest]

Below is one example of uncountable daily acts of animal torture done in the (ugh)
" processing " of the animals for your eating pleasure. I found the article at
http://www.torturedbytyson.com Take a look.. I dare ya

"From December 2004 through February 2005, a PETA undercover investigator worked on the slaughter line of a Tyson Foods chicken processing plant in Heflin, Alabama. Using a hidden camera, he documented the treatment of the more than 100,000 chickens killed every day in the plant.

What the investigator saw was truly horrifying. Birds were frequently mutilated by throat-cutting machines that didn't work properly; one bird had her skin torn entirely off her chest. Workers were instructed to rip the heads off birds who had missed the throat-cutting machines, and our investigator was told not to stop the line for missed birds. Plant employees were seen throwing dying birds around just for fun.

PETA's investigator also witnessed numerous birds who were scalded alive in the feather-removal tank while they were still conscious and able to feel pain. Plant managers told him that it was acceptable for 40 animals per shift to be scalded alive, and no one was reprimanded when far more than 40 birds suffered this fate during any given shift.

PETA's investigator repeatedly expressed concern to plant supervisors about the treatment of the chickens, but his complaints were ignored. Watch the video and see for yourself the agony of these animals' last moments.

Animal-welfare experts agree that this sort of treatment is unacceptable. Dr. Temple Grandin of Colorado State University wrote, "This is a total FAILURE on animal welfare," and Dr. Mohan Raj of the University of Bristol wrote that "due to the lack of appropriate legislation to protect the welfare of birds at slaughter people seem to get away with [these] cruel and unethical practices." Indeed, chickens are not afforded any protection under any federal animal welfare legislation. The Humane Methods of Slaughter Act leaves chickens and turkeys out entirely. Read statements from these and other animal welfare experts.

As hard as it is to stomach, this sort of treatment is entirely too common in modern chicken slaughterhouses. Previous undercover investigations have turned up injured and dying birds left unattended during workers' lunch breaks and workers who ripped animals limb from limb, threw live chickens against walls, and stomped up and down on them on the ground.

Sadly, all these abuses were entirely preventable. In 2003, PETA first contacted Tyson about a new chicken slaughter technology known as controlled-atmosphere killing (CAK), a process that replaces oxygen in the air with an inert gas such as nitrogen—which already makes up 78 percent of the air we breathe—masking the lack of oxygen and putting the birds to sleep quickly and painlessly. CAK would have eliminated all the cruelty that took place in all these investigations, from mutilation by the cutting machine to live scalding, because the birds would have been killed much earlier in the slaughter process and would not have been handled by the workers until they were dead. "

FOR Photos and more info.. go to:

http://www.torturedbytyson.com

You can help. Please ask Tyson to adopt CAK immediately:
John Tyson, Chair and CEO
Tyson Foods, Inc.
2210 W. Oaklawn Dr.
Springdale, AR 72762-6999
479-290-4000
479-290-4061 (fax)

[Maria22]

The investigational video of Tyson is horrifying, enough that it actually made me physically ill. I just can’t believe how inhumane people can act towards animals. I immediately wrote to them about adopting the CAK system, which should have been a no brainer anyway. And to think that this is only one isolated instance, just imagine how many other animals (cows, pigs….etc.) are being tortured in the food making process as well. It’s sad that people can have no regard for life, despite their place in the food chain, all living creatures deserve to be treated with the same amount of respect (period)

Personally, I’ve never really enjoyed meat to begin with so I’ve been vegetarian almost my entire life. However, last year I was turned onto the Vegan lifestyle by a friend. Since doing so, I have notice tremendous difference in the way I look and feel. Being vegan, means refraining from eating meat and dairy, and because I’m also a bit of a health nut, I try to avoid most processed foods as well. Everyone is constantly asking me "so what do you eat then?" You'd be surprised to learn of the many alternatives out there nowadays (especially living in NYC). More and more people are being turned onto the lifestyle for it’s many health benefits, therefore more food companies are catering to the vegetarian/vegan lifestyle. My diet is mostly fruits, vegetables, soy products, nuts and grains. Which may not seem like much in terms of adequate nutrition, but I've honestly never felt healthier in my life. And today you can find calcium, protein and other vital nutrients packed into everything.

[wolfscalissi]

" By not eating beef– and other farm animals as well–you:

save massive amounts of water – 3,000 to 5,000 gallons of water for every pound of beef you avoid,

avoid polluting our streams and rivers better than any other single recycling effort you do,

avoid the destruction of topsoil,

avoid the destruction of tropical forest,

avoid the production of carbon dioxide. (Your average car produces 3 kg/day of CO2. To clear rainforest to produce beef for one hamburger produces 75 kg of CO2. Eating one pound of hamburger does the same damage as driving your car for more than three weeks);

reduce the amount of methane gas produced. (I imagine the next bumper sticker: stop farts, don’t eat beef);

reduce the destruction of wildlife habitat, and
help to save endangered species.

That’s a pretty good day’s work, for just what you don’t put in your mouth. "

"How Our Food Choices can Help Save the Environment", by Steve Boyan, PhD
http://www.earthsave.org/environment/foodchoices.htm


Thank you for treating this as the serious topic it is

^gassho^ :bowdown:

[comicallyinsane]

Here is my dilemma. I can't eat fruits or vegetables. I am allergic. They make my throat and mouth swell up. The doctors say it's a very rare allergy. I can only drink juice if it's 27 percent or less real juice. I have always eaten meat. I try to eat bread and pastas and other things as much as possible but it is really hard to adapt my eating habits and get all of the nutrition I need. What should I do?

[Guest]

Hi Comical
It sounds like you have a very difficult situation to deal with daily. My daughter has food sensitiviteis also .. in fact she lost her hearing in one ear because I got her diagnosed at a Naturopathic Doc for the allergies too late and she had inner ear damage from the repeated otitis ( the regular MD's sid she would outgrow the infections and it was normal). Well.. thank God the infections disappeard after eliminating the foods and also using a regimine of nutritional and herbal suppliments. She can now eat some of the foods she couldnt before and the others ( like wheat and gluten) she can have if she rotates them ,, eat them one day and not again for another 3 or so days. Being that I am vegan it was even more challenging to get protein for her but not impossible ( she was also allergic to soy).
If you can eat grains, legumes, rice, beans- including soy, ,, eggs and dairy...you can illiminate meat from your diet. Its a fact that most americans consume an excess of protein in their diet.. which can lead to all kinds of health probems if they are getting it from animal sources.

Also.. last but not least .. ( if you arent already doing this,, ) thank the animal that you are eating for its life and perhaps pray it gets a rebirth as a human next time :)

Im happy to help you with any of these ideas,, just let me know

[comicallyinsane]

Thank you. I love chicken. I don't how long it will take ot get rid of the attachment of that. LOL. I am always working on myself.

[Elohim]

I find that people use "vegaterian", "vegan", "omnivore" as labels to attach to themselves. Just another convention to become a part of the already large ego. I don't think it really matters to the world what you eat. I eat whatever I can to survive. If it's meat then it's meat, if it's an apple and some peanuts, then it's apples and peanuts. I think that people who try not to eat meat because they have compassion for the animals is a very good and noble thing, however, being a buddhist is trying to not add these labels to our lives but remove them. Dukkha is one of the main points the Buddha taught. In dukkha we find that all states are unsatisfactory. All states are imperfect. The world is not perfect and neither are we. Animals will be eatten, people will eat them, both us and the animals will die somehow and become food for something. They eat us too sometimes. (Like worms, mosquitoes, occassional shark feasts) It is the nature of the world and samsara. I definitely think it is important to not harm animals for the sake of hurting them, as well as have the intention to treat them as living things. Intention the Buddha taught is as important as the physical action. I don't think it's right to torture or abuse animals, but eatting is natural. Animals eat other animals, and we are animals too. I think knowing where your food comes from and how it is processed is very important. If we can stop companies from doing horrible things to the animals that become our food, I think we should. Beyond that I don't see the need to really argue the point. If you don't want to eat meat then don't. If you do enjoy. The Dalai Lama eats meat, why can't I?

[comicallyinsane]

Well said.

[wolfscalissi]

Thank you Elohim for the point, well spoken. I found myself contemplating today this topic. First I think elohim is right in not giving us another label, be it carnivore omnivore or vegetarian. Secondly we must understand the precept, really understand it inside and out. If we follow the rule just because it’s a rule we are no better off than if we didn’t know the rule. Each of us must internalize the precept and make it our own. Ask your self where would you stand if this were NOT a precept? We must find our original minds and see for ourselves.
The morality issue is a big one from the standpoint of the suffering of animals, the poisoning of the earth and squandering of natural resources. We sanitize ourselves from the situation by letting someone else do the dirty work, and we have no idea the brutality involved in the action. Ask your self would you or could you kill a chicken for dinner tonight? How about slaughter a cow? The fact that we are unaware is a great hindrance to the way. Our path is awareness. We can see that this creates greed (we eat way to much!) suffering (starvation in other countries as well as the actual suffering of the animals). So awareness of all of our actions: that hamburger meat was a cow. Living and breathing and feeling.
Now we have the last Point. All of our actions, which we allow other people to perform for us on a regular basis, can find the way to bad karmic action or cause Dukkha. Who picked the green beans I eat? How were they treated? I don’t know do I? So awareness of every step I take and all of the things in which I partake must be viewed as closely to the vine as possible.
In closing can we take responsibility for our choices? Can we make informed clear and non-judgmental choices about how we wish to leave our tracks on this planet? I can only take this step for myself you can only take this step for you. May you find your inherent perfection in this and every step.

^gassho^

[Elohim]

I think that is a good way to look at it. We are the only ones who can take these steps for ourselves. It's very hard to walk the path taught by the Buddha. It is sometimes like we are trying to become a perfect person in an imperfect world. We want to make every action be the right, moral, and noble one. In truth this isn't possible. Nothing can ever be perfect in this existence. Mistakes happen, people are placed in difficult situations where choices aren't moral, and bad things can happen to moral and just people. Food is one of many, many choices we are faced with everyday. We are only asked to do the best we can - to develop awareness, compassion, and discernment. We should be aware of what we do, and to be as informed as possible. But I don't think people should be so hard on themselves because in the world you have millions of different opinions. You never know what you are being told is true or false. Meat is good, meat is bad, you need meat, you don't need meat, it's natural, it's cruel....all these different views. Not everyone can be right can they? It's really difficult to make the best decisions. I think making a decision with the intention of it being the right thing is a starting place. If you believe eatting animals is bad then you should avoid it with the intention of not harming living things, as well as not killing any bugs, etc. If you feel that it is the nature of life to eat meat and you do not eat animals just to be cruel then you should be mindful of that, and choose to eat with the intention of sustaining your body while being greatful to the animal for its sacrifice.

[Guest]

.... is SOMEone clinging to "not clinging" ? :P

[Elohim]

It's possible. I don't think so though. I think people need to relax and not get worked up so much about things. We can't control everything. I think our intentions are more important since they are ours, we inherit their fruits. It doesn't matter what anybody else does. These days people seem to need to cling to so many things and modern buddhist sometimes miss this in their own lives. Many argue about who is better, republicans or democrats. "Oh, well I'm a vegetarian democrat that's pro choice." And they identify with that until they build a self around it. The same with an "I'm a conservative republican born again pro lifer." If that's what people want to do that's fine. But if you are a practicing Buddhist, then you should try to realize the 3 characteristics in all aspects of life. Labels just seperate people and cover up the teaching of anatta. When I was a boy and I went to my first few days of kindergarten I can home crying. My mom asked me what was wrong. I said the kids wouldn't play with me. She asked me why. I told her the kids said I wasn't black so they wouldn't play with me. I cried even harder and asked my mom why I wasn't black and how I could be. (I went to school in Detroit and I was one of the only white kids in my class at the time) I had no idea that I was any different from anyone else. That's how I was raised. But enough time in the world, and enough people telling you all the differences we have, poof! Now I'm all full of views and ideas and labels. Instead of seeing just people I see white and black and asian etc. I believe it is a good practice to let go of a lot of these things we keep attached to us. I seem really full of myself I'm sure, but I just want to make sure that people don't lose track of the fact this site is for people to learn about what the Buddha taught. The Buddha wasn't about being anything, he was about letting go.

[Knight of Buddha]

Even before I found Buddhism, I did not eat meat. I simply don't like the taste or the look of it. Besides I am a very peaceful person and I love nature. But its mostly because I don't like the taste.

[Casthinker]

I read every post and I think everyone makes good points. I certainly cannot profess to be a Buddhist because I am just learning. However I believe it is each persons own choice to eat what they are comfortable with and can tolerate. I do not believe people should judge one way or another.

We all have reasons why we do the things we do. I believe if you try to live right and do good by others than you are living the right path. To eat meat or not is anindividual choice and being that Buddhism is not strict like Christianity I think there is room in Buddhism for all our beliefs as long as we do not do it for selfish reasons.

Am I way off?

[Simonthepilgrim]

When the Dalai Lama and his companions escaped to India in 1959, they decided to change their diet. In Tibet, non-meat eating was not an option, the ecos-system being incapable of supplying a sufficient diet.

HHDL, being an enthusiast, went all the way and became a vegan. The result was that they began to fall ill: jaundice.

We live in countries where meat eating is actually unnecessary for health. In Tibet, butchers were considered to be outcasts - necessary but untouchable. How do we view our slaughterers? We ask them to kill and prepare meat for us. Where does the karmic debt lie?

[omni]

Elohim said “I don't think it really matters to the world what you eat”. In this same discussion, sata_rupa_tara listed several environmental impacts that result from eating meat. It is true that the world as a whole may not care about my individual dietary choice, but our collective choices do have a major impact on our population.

If we look objectively at the process of raising cattle for food and the resources it takes to support the animals until they are ready to kill and package, it takes far more to raise a pound nutrition in the form of meat than it does for the same nutrition in the form of vegetable matter. Protein is protein, regardless where it comes from.

Over 20 people can be fed nutritious diets from the same amount of land and other inputs if they ate grain-based foods instead of the more complicated “convert to meat” step. Most grain goes to feed beef cattle! There are a lot of people in the world who would benefit from the additional grain freed up by giving up a few million pounds of meat as food.

Most people I know eat meat because they like the taste and truly believe they will die tomorrow if they don’t have it with every meal; not from an intellectual choice after weighing net inputs and outputs. Making that taste-based choice may not have anything to do with the moral question of eating animals; it is just something they have always done. We do it this way because we have always done it this way, but that does not mean that it is the best choice given our current population levels and shrinking agricultural resources.

Even if everyone suddenly awoke as confirmed vegetarians (wouldn’t that be nice!), we still have a resource allocation problem: no matter whether we eat soybeans or McBurgers, both are largely the product of petroleum in the form of fertilizers, and diesel fuel. We need to make as few demands on our available resources as we have to in the process of eating anything at all. If we could choose between 20 veggie burgers or 20 meat burgers, we could also feed 20 times more people by choosing the veggie burgers.

On a fundamental level, it does indeed matter to the world what we eat.

[Simonthepilgrim]

Beautifully said, Omni.

Our diet, like each of our actions, has effects far beyond the immediate.

Perhaps more people will give up read meat now that its effect in the aetiology of bowel cancer is understood. But I fear that may mean more chickens tortured in battery cages and more fish farmed unhealthily.

The hope lies in the 'organic' death of meat eating, for all the many reasons that are bringing it about.

[comicallyinsane]

Even if everyone suddenly awoke as confirmed vegetarians (wouldn’t that be nice!)



That would be horrible for me being that I am allergic to fruits and vegetables. Try to look at if from my point of view. What if the world woke up and could only eat meat?

[omni]

That would be horrible for me being that I am allergic to fruits and vegetables. Try to look at if from my point of view. What if the world woke up and could only eat meat?


Of course, the wish would also include elimination of food allergies! :)

If we could only eat meat, we all would shortly be eating each other since it takes a lot longer to birth and raise a cow or chicken than it does to eat one. It would be a long time between meals for all us Homo Saps.

Since we're wishing, let's opt for the sustainable path.

[comicallyinsane]

No they would just have to start rounding up those deer and we would have to start eating other animals. Ranches everywhere. BBQ pits on every corner. Brings a tear to my eye.




If you are going ot wish why not just wish we didn't have to eat at all? Why kill veggies? That is life, too. When I was trying to eat vegetables when I was younger before they knew about the allergy I thought the taste and smell of them was horrible. Of course the swelling and irritation followed.

[omni]

Six billion people have to eat about every day. Gestation in mammals in measured in months. Do the arithmetic...iIt's going to be a long wait after the cows and chickens and deer and dogs and cats and slower humans have been "processed".

Thinking with the taste buds does not engender sustainable solutions.

[comicallyinsane]

There's more animals than those. We have bears, horses, rats(they grow real fast), I could live on eggs if I had to. Lots of protein. "slower humans" LOL :)


"Hey how many fingers would you like?" Gives a whole new meaning to that.

[omni]

Just for fun, I tried to figure out how long it would take us to eat all the deer. Well, not ALL of them because we have to keep about half around to make a new crop of food. Gestation is around 200 days for a Whitetail and estimates are that there 29 million deer in the USA. According to the hunting guides, a 200 pound deer yields 160 pounds of meat.

So, we kill 14,500,000 deer and package the meat. The population if the US is about 300 million (not counting illegal immigrants, of course). That is one deer for every 20.7 people, or 7.73 pounds per person. Of course, that has to last for 200 days. (Since baby deer don't weigh 200 pounds, it’s going to be a lot tougher when the next crop comes in.)

So, for the next 200 days, we get to eat a half an ounce of deer each day; about 16 calories. Since some of us would get hungry on that diet, being about 1,800 calories short for the day, of course we would do the cows and chickens and all the other critters and would probably have to get really creative before the next 200 days were up.

I suspect that there would be no meat of any kind left at the end of the first 200 days. QED.

Munch on a peanut and think about it. :)

[Simonthepilgrim]

Thank you, Comic,

You remind me:

* Be careful what you wish for..........

* No absolute solution can be right for everyone

A man goes into the Zen butcher's.
"Give me the best piece of your finest meat," he asked the butcher.

"All our meat is excellent," replied the butcher.

[comicallyinsane]

So how long does it take for a rat to be ready to eat?

[wolfscalissi]

I might respectfuly ask that this thread not be turned into a cynycal comedy thread. remember please that there are many people here that do not post they simply browse, read and learn. superficial ideals are not the point of this post and after they become full of this sort of thing seekers will stop reading and thinking for themselves. thank you for your consideration on this and other very important topics to all the seekers out there.

^gassho^

[comicallyinsane]

I am very serious on this topic. I made a few jokes but I am actually curious on the whole population of anumals now and the fact on whether we could live on them or not. So this is not meant to be comical. Eating vegetables is taking life also. Why is it that animals are singled out to be the saved? We need to take life to sustain ours. That is a contradiction on harming living things precept. If we don't eat we are harming ourselves and if we do eat we are harming other living beings. So how can we do both and do niether? Also why is it wrong to make jokes? Isn't humor important? People already view Buddhist as super serous. We are not like that. Humor is so important. Just because we are joking a bit doesn't mean we are not serious on the topic. :)

[Matt]

I don't have much to offer in the higher discussion, but I just thought I'd chime in and say that I do eat meat and don't have plans to change that in the near future.

[omni]

To me, respecting life means not taking it if it can be avoided. I can avoid taking life by eating as far down on the sentience scale as possible. A carrot is alive but a cow is much more likely to be nearer Enlightenment, so I prefer to eat the carrot. Anything that runs away when being selected for food has its reasons and I try to respect the feelings behind the reasons. I have a choice and am at peace with the choice. Others may find their own path.

Humor is a mirror to our inner selves. If facts are humorous, i didn't mean offence. And I agree that the discussion is deadly serious because it does result in taking life and we should make that decision with open minds and not our taste buds. I don't ask anyone to change; only to question the permanence of their decision.

In my humble opinion, of course.

[comicallyinsane]

To me, respecting life means not taking it if it can be avoided. I can avoid taking life by eating as far down on the sentience scale as possible. A carrot is alive but a cow is much more likely to be nearer Enlightenment, so I prefer to eat the carrot. Anything that runs away when being selected for food has its reasons and I try to respect the feelings behind the reasons. I have a choice and am at peace with the choice. Others may find their own path.

Humor is a mirror to our inner selves. If facts are humorous, i didn't mean offence. And I agree that the discussion is deadly serious because it does result in taking life and we should make that decision with open minds and not our taste buds. I don't ask anyone to change; only to question the permanence of their decision.

In my humble opinion, of course.


How do you know a carrot is not more enlightened? I keep hearing Enlightenment is emptyness. I think a carrot fits that description. Maybe a carrot doesn't run away becasue it would rather give it's life for ours to help us stay alive? Maybe it is sentient and we just don't notice? :)

[omni]

I suspect there may be more truth in that than we will ever know. Conversely, inverting the scale puts us farther away from Enlightenment than we may wish to be! If it were so, I wonder if there is ever any way for us to know? I have often said that my brain was working like a turnip's, but maybe that was flattering myself.

To quote our Monk-to be: Warning! Objects in mirror are not as enlightened as they appear.

[indecline]

i think ive said this somewhere else before.... it was in natures order for there to be carnivores...... if the wolves werent hunting the rabbits the rabbits would overpopulate, drain their food supply and starve to death anyways.... so are the bears and wolves gaining huge negative karma, or just trying to survive?

when we breathe in, were eating lots of dust mites and bacteria and all sorts of stuff...is that negative karma? probably not.... plants are just as alive as anything... they struggle and adapt and consume and breed, just like people... the difference being some life consumes energy from the sun and chemicals like sugar and water....while some life consumes energy from.. other life...


i think if humans are consuming to sustain their diet its okay, like the fish and the bears and the eagles... but when were capturing and breeding animals for the sole purpose of killing and eating, thats pretty bad karma...

when were forcing animals to endure grotesque conditions like chicken farms
(ps did you know the deformed and underweight chicks are ground up and fed to their siblings?
they used to do with cows untill the mad cow disease scare....did you know they use a red hot knife to cut the beaks off of chickens so they dont peck and eat eachother?)

dairy farms are no better...




can u imagine if humans were bred in captivity, had their teeth and nails removed by a red hot knife so we didnt scratch and eat eachother, we were fed childeren that were ground up into paste if they were too small or deformed, were kept in cages so small we could hardly move, were fed untill we were so fat we could hardly walk... then theyd come and kill us, cut us into steaks and serve us to their people with a side of mashed potatoes.....





if money is the root of all evil, what is the root of all money?

[omni]

We are omnivores, not carnivores. Since we can eat both veggies and meat, maybe we were given the opportunity to decide which we will eat. Sophic and circular arguments serve only to divert attention from the main point: Is it wrong to kill for food when I have a choice?

I don't know, and not knowing bothers me deeply. I don't see how both YES and NO can be correct answers. If only one is correct for one of us, then why does it not apply to all of us? This is the philosophical question I want to explore.

[indecline]

we are consumers.... we consume other life, we dont eat dirt or sunshine... we eat other things that are alive... so arent we allways killing for food?

[DharmaKitten]

I'm an omnivore. My husband calls himself an anti-vegan (though he does eat some grain products, tomato sauces, bananas and a few other veggies or fruits if processed enough). Anyways, I have a friend who goes through periods of vegetarianism. She's really sensitive to the idea of animals being hurt.

One night they started talking about food - bad idea. She explained to him how animals are slaughtered. He remarked that it was better than he imagined. He thought they just started taking out the different meat cuts with the cow alive and mooing in order to maintain freshness. Next thing I know he's telling her how at least the animals are dead when we eat them, we just rip the poor veggies from the soil and put them on our plates. He was trying to be funny, but it upset her so much I thought for a moment that she just might consider not eating at all. It's really amazing I have any vegetarian friends at all with my hubby around.

[Elohim]

True, true. Maybe our choice to eat vegetables over animals may help the planet in the short term but our population will cease and arise and cease and arise many, many more times in a cycle that may never end. Who knows. Maybe, maybe, maybe. I don't know for sure. Just because someone writes posts of "facts" about how bad raising cattle is doesn't mean it's true. I am not an expert so I can't verify their truth. Anyway, to me it doesn't matter because I must eat red meat for the iron because my anemia doesn't enable my body to break it down from other sources. Even the iron from meat can't entirely be used. But it is enough that I can work and do things normally. I cannot take iron pills becasue my body will just get iron poisoning (I cannot break down all the iron at once and it just builds in it's base form which is bad). I won't die without meat I don't think, but I will be sick and my body will not have the oxygen it needs. Like I said, not eatting meat is fine, but I don't see a reason I shouldn't. Even the Buddha ate meat. I think the last meal he had was of meat, the one that killed him. I think moderation is good. You don't need it everyday, and you don't need to abuse the animals being eatten for sure. But what do I know? I like Kylie Minogue and admit it publicly. Nothing I say I can be trusted.

[Simonthepilgrim]

ComicallyInsane raises the question of vegetable 'life'. Without wishing to be flippant, theis is a 'red herring', particularly for Buddhists.

Whilst we acknowledge (as do Christians) that all beings strive for Awakening, the 'life' of vegetables or of the hills, is different in kind from human or animal life.

In Buddhism, we speak of the Realms, into which one may be reborn (either after death or day-by-day). It is only in the human realm that we can attain Enlightenment for reasons which are obvious if we reflect on the nature of the realms.

It is certainly true that the Great Ones have, in the stories, sent forth animal incarnations. This was always for specific purposes.

In the matter-obsessed West, we make a clear distinction between life and 'persistent vegetative state' when the brain has been irreversibly compromised.

The important thing must, surely, be not what we eat but that we should do so
* without clinging or aversion, and
* mindfully.

The World-Honoured Buddha Shakyamuni, as a monk, ate whatever he was offered, refusing nothing however disgusting. In fact, that is exactly what lead to his physical death.

[comicallyinsane]

[QUOTE=SimonthepilgrimIn the matter-obsessed West, we make a clear distinction between life and 'persistent vegetative state' when the brain has been irreversibly compromised.
[/QUOTE]


I was just thinking of this tonight. I was thinking of the way people go into comas and never come out. I was thinking that maybe when they go into a coma they reach enlightenment and decide it's better to stay were they are. :banghead:

[omni]

It still surprises me that so many people are just plain mean spirited when it comes to discussing the veggie vs. meat question. I have worked with many people who think it is perfectly okay to make mean-spirited comments about my food choice even after I tell them it was a moral decision that was right for me. Inviting me out to lunch or dinner for a raw steak or barbeque or fried chicken seemed to be a constant joke. They reacted to politeness by saying that not eating enough meat makes you weak and passive and many still go out of their way to describe how much fun it is to hear a pig being killed. "The sweetest scream of all" is supposed to make the meat taste better.

And they just love describing the ritual of smearing warm blood from a freshly killed deer all over their son's naked body in a ritual of passage. Hello testosterone, goodbye compassion.

"I ain't gonna give up my meat" is about the most serious thought they can express on the subject. They do not want to discuss; they want to respond with hurtful statements that challenge the non-meat eater's intelligence. That is virtually always from men; never from a woman.

Every vegetarian has been subjected to those mean-spirited comments at some point.

Why can there be no meaningful dialogue on the subject? Why do the initial responses seem to border on anger? Can it be that there are no genuine arguments for the other viewpoint?

[comicallyinsane]

It still surprises me that so many people are just plain mean spirited when it comes to discussing the veggie vs. meat question. I have worked with many people who think it is perfectly okay to make mean-spirited comments about my food choice even after I tell them it was a moral decision that was right for me. Inviting me out to lunch or dinner for a raw steak or barbeque or fried chicken seemed to be a constant joke. They reacted to politeness by saying that not eating enough meat makes you weak and passive and many still go out of their way to describe how much fun it is to hear a pig being killed. "The sweetest scream of all" is supposed to make the meat taste better.

And they just love describing the ritual of smearing warm blood from a freshly killed deer all over their son's naked body in a ritual of passage. Hello testosterone, goodbye compassion.

"I ain't gonna give up my meat" is about the most serious thought they can express on the subject. They do not want to discuss; they want to respond with hurtful statements that challenge the non-meat eater's intelligence. That is virtually always from men; never from a woman.

Every vegetarian has been subjected to those mean-spirited comments at some point.

Why can there be no meaningful dialogue on the subject? Why do the initial responses seem to border on anger? Can it be that there are no genuine arguments for the other viewpoint?


I had no idea people did this so much. Sorry you have to go through that. But remember, those people are lost. They are a step up from animals. That ritual with the blood sounds illegal as much as it is digusting. I would never do anything like that t my kids. I actually love them and don't want to scar them for life.

[Elohim]

I don't believe I have said anything mean-spirited myself. I have said I don't mind people's choices to not eat meat. I have no problem with anyone who is a vegetarian. When I am with people who don't eat meat, I don't eat meat when they are around. I just want to make it clear that to be a buddhist does not mean you have to be a vegetarian. It seems like vegetarians like to make others feel bad about their choice to eat animals while meat eatters try harrass vegetarians, saying that it's the only way and we are meant to. My own opinion is that we should practice the middle way. We should do what we feel is right and what keeps us practicing and healthy. If it's being a vegetarian then that is ok. If it is to eat meat once in a while, then that's ok. Above that I think we should leave others to make their own choices and not try to convince anyone that "our" way is the only correct way. That is not what the Buddha taught. I think that we are all having a meaningful discusion here. I myself cannot help that I was born with a form of beta thalassemia anemia. Most people don't know because it doesn't make me look or act any different, but it sure as hell can make me feel different. I tried to be a vegetarian when I first became "buddhist". It didn't work out for me, but I really did try because I felt sorry for the creatures flesh I was consuming. This is one of those arguments that becomes a view that we attach to. We end up fighting each other and being mean because neither side will see the others point. That's what I meant by "what does it matter what I eat or do?". If you worry about what I do because you don't agree with it, you'll never have any peace. It's just impossible that eveybody can be the way you want or view as right. Buddhist are supposed to be more tolerant. I am sorry if anything I say is seen as being mean or incorrect. It was never my intention. I guess that is all I have to say on the matter.

[Brian]

Omni, it's not like that everywhere. I see that you live in South Carolina, perhaps the culture of your state has a lot to do with it. I live in a very big "deer" state, and I have never in my life heard of that "ritual" - that sounds barbaric and ridiculous. I agree that vegetarians are often ostracized and made fun of, but at least here in Michigan, it's certainly NOT to that degree.

[omni]

Unfortunately, around here the male child of a mighty hunter actually looks forward to killing his first deer and going through that barbaric rite of passage. Hunters really don't think there is anything odd in the practice since that's what their dad did for them. I agree that it is the local mentality, repulsive as it is to even most people who eat meat. It's a "hunter" thing....

None of the hunters I know do it for the meat. It's for the sport of it all.

And I agree with you, Elohim. I haven't seen anything mean or offensive in any of the discussions here; I was referring to the work-a-day world i have been captured in for so long. It has just been frustrating that people seem to want to attack and flaunt meat eating simply because they know i'm a vegetarian. I never have made a big deal of it but others seem to think it is really fun to describe their eating habits and the quality of the piece meat they happen to be eating. That is where the mean-spiritedness comes in. It is just plain bad manners, if nothing else.

I have tried on occasion to explain why I became vegetarian but the responses I got were less than receptive and clearly not from an open mind. The accumulated experience over the past 35 years has just made me wonder why an open dialogue seems to be impossible?

I agree...that's probably enough of that.

Peace.

[Elohim]

I am sorry that my ego automatically assumes that everything is about me. Hehe. I have actually found myself in a similar circumstance here in Santa Cruz, although reversed. Many of the people here are vegetarian (Maybe you should move out here). Some treat people who eat meat negatively. It's not as harsh as your experience, but people just have real trouble accepting different ideas. Most people hold so tightly to what they do and it becomes the "right" thing. If you eat meat then you defend it because you think this opinion is "yours". The same with vegetarians. I tried to ask politely aout why my roomate became vegan and he reacted by snapping at me and acting as if I was attacking his choice. I was merely curious. I think he reacted because he assumed that I was against it or something. People cannot talk about these things because 1. They assume they are being attacked and automatically defend their position. 2. Are just raised poorly and have no respect and manners. 3. Have too much ignorance to see where they may be wrong, that they are not always right, or others feelings. This is the teaching of anatta in practice. Peoples opinions become part of their "selves" and they instinctually defend their "selves". So now they have the "right" views, choices, ideas, because nobody likes to be "wrong". People can just be plain stupid too. Some lack even an ounce of compassion and don't care if they are hurting another by their speech or actions. But one day, maybe when they are old, they will realize how mean they were and then regret wasting their lives by being such pricks. At the very least you can have a clear conscience that you tried to help people understand your choice without being rude, violent, or just plain ignorant.

[wolfscalissi]

Elohim,
I feel that many of these negative responses are due to people’s identification with a label. It seems that when we make a decision based on "what other people think" we are immediately trapped in a fear driven position. Then because we are identified with the label we feel it is a personal attack on our being. If we simply adopt the ideas without internalizing them, actually breathing our own life into them, we cannot possibly "defend our decision". That in of itself is a funny little life koan because if we have made a clear and deeply thought out decision we will not be threatened by anyone’s opinion. We will be well armed to defend our position but it is unlikely we will even feel the need to do so. It brings to mind a teaching by Bodhidharma

Buddhas don’t save Buddhas. If you use your mind to look for a Buddha, you won’t see the Buddha. As long as you look for a Buddha somewhere else, you’ll never see that your own mind is the Buddha. Don’t use a Buddha to worship a Buddha. And don’t use the mind to invoke a Buddha." Buddhas don’t recite sutras." Buddhas don’t keep precepts." And Buddhas don’t break precepts. Buddhas don’t keep or break anything. Buddhas don’t do good or evil.

This is the crux of this whole post. Don't follow the precept just because the Buddha said. Science is a theory based practice. Find the answers for yourself. Don’t take anybody’s word for anything. We must breathe life into the precepts or else they are just rocks in the road.

^gassho^

[Elohim]

Yes, that's what I was trying to say! Well put.

[omni]

If i find answers for myself, possibly after years of thinking as clearly and objectively as I can and have reached conclusions about the subject..such as becoming vegetarian, or non-violent or whatever... how then do i disassociate myself from a feeling of ownership and identifying with the position?

I don't personally believe that disagreements with my viewpoint are direct attacks on me as a person, but they are clearly (?) attacks on the conclusions I have drawn. Arguing to defend a position is fruitless but isn't it appropriate to share information about the decision process as an opportunity for the other person to learn? Do I keep silent or try to share knowledge?

Or, is it most appropriate for the other person to find answers on their own when they are ready to look for them?

[MoonLgt]

Hi I am new to this forum. But just had to reply to the topic of Meat -eater or Vegan. Being native American as well as buddhist. When people ask me if I am a meat -eater or Vagen ( as they like to be called here) I simply reply i am niether and both. I am part of the circle of life. And as part of that circle, I thank both the animal and the plant for the food it provides. Example, If I pick a ripe tomatoe off a plant in my garden, I thank it for the wonderful fruit I am about to partake in. If I Am preparing a chicken breast for my family, I thank the Chicken for the wonderful gift he or she has given.
Thus I am a part of the circle of life.

[Brian]

Welcome to the site, MoonLgt!

[comicallyinsane]

Yes welcome. I was telling my wife the other day that I was thinking of cutting out red meat in my diet. She made a little joke saying, "I just don't know you anymore" and "What happenned to the man I married?". I had to laugh. Just so everyone knows my wife is very supportive in everything I do. I thought about it and everyone knows about my allergy to fruits and vegetables so I think I will just cut down on red meat but not completely. I have already cut out a lot of fried meats. A hamburger once in a while or a pork chop isn't too bad. My inlaws are BBQing today so we are going over. My wife is making bacon now and asked me if I wanted any but I passed. Lately the grease just upsets my stomach. I am not against people eating meat but I do hate that they treat the animals badly. In the old days the chickens ran around the farm and they killed one when they were going to eat it. The chickens were not treated badly. So why do they do it now?

[Elohim]

Thank you for making it clearer to me.

[rhidee]

All I know is, I was a vegetarian from the moment I was born. I was a vegetarian before I was Buddhist and to me, it's not a question of religion. I don't like the knowledge that what is sitting on your plate used to be walking around, making noise, trying to live. Eating human flesh is just as bad as eating cow, or pig, or chicken, and there's no excuse because I survive perfectly well without meat. It's not all lentil burgers and nut roasts, either - in this day and age I can eat a product that looks, tastes and smells like meat.

Sorry, all you carnivores, but I just don't see the appeal, personally!

[comicallyinsane]

Well I am allergic to vegetables. I would like to hear about these products you speak of. Thanks.

[Guest]

A point I forgot Rhidee,, thanks,, I stopped eating animals before having anything to do with Buddhism as well.. in fact the Dharma was attractive to me because of the compassion and Ahimsa as its foundation. Being vegetarian isnt an attachment or label for me any more than being a boy girl or human is. It just IS ,, and to talk about it we use that term. ITs a world of nama rupa.

[kinlee]

Just wondering anyone of you guys seen the video documentary "Diet for the New America" by John Robbins?

[Guest]

I have Kinlee,,, I think all omnivores should view it so they can at least make an educated decision. The person who made the movie and wrote the book, John Robbins, also has an organization and website called Earthsave. (For those who dont know him) He is the heir to the Baskin Robbins fortune but turned it down for the reasons of issues like factory farming the cows go thru to produce the milk to make the ice cream. His son Ocean has a Youth activism group called YES. On a different note,, I understand the "Circle of life" but I dont believe eating animals ( sentient beings) need to be a part of that circle for humans. There is indisputable evidence that we can eat a healthy well balanced complete nutrition diet without the use of animals. The exceptions would be someone like our friend with the veggie allergy or indigenous people in places where they dont have other protein options like tofu and peanut butter. How parasitic we choose to be is a personal decision ,, in our diets and other ways like how much we take and how much we give in this lifetime. If we are believers of karma, and are aware of the pain and suffering we are bringning to those factory farmed animals by choosing to buy them,,, how can we not expect to experience the same in this life or another?

[comicallyinsane]

Don't forget all the insects killed by the machines that harvest the vegetables.

[kinlee]

The movie presented a bigger picture of upsetting the balance of natural ecosystem by eating meat. It was really an awesome documentary which really struck me to go for vegetarian diet (on the way there, but not yet). It provides with convincing reasons taking up vegetarian diet. :)
John Robbins is someone similar to Price Siddarthar, a man who gave up luxury life for the betterment of mankind.
I watched the documentary ample times, I can sense that there are Buddhism values in it. Really good stuff.
Personally, I think, he might be a Bodhisattva in disguise.

cheers,

[kinlee]

The movie can be viewed at http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/Prefs.asp?video=dietforanewamerica

[buddhafoot]

this is a very rough site - that pulls no punches - and i know a ton of people will have a difficult time with it ...

that being said - view at your own risk

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=grill

you have to bear in mind that a lot of what makes this person popular is his turnings of a phrase, laying the "smack down", etc.

but he makes some very good points about "what we believe to be vegetarianism" and "since I don't eat meat - i have a positive affect on the earth" mentality.

i think one way to think of things is: there is big business. no matter what it is - a lot of it comes down to profit margins, dividends, bonuses, etc. he makes a great point about "pests" being eliminated - which basically means herbivores being killed because they're cutting in on profit margins.

this reminds me of a book on buddhism i read. there was a chapter where the author was talking about the commandment of "thou shalt not lie". he was also making a point that many, morale people believe that telling a lie is bad.

but buddhism looks more at "right intent".

his next statement was, "so supposed you're in a house with some jews hiding upstairs. the gestapo knock on your door and ask if you if you have jews hiding upstairs."

what comes into play better? "THOU SHALT NOT LIE" or "right intention".

please don't be offended by the article i posted - i just thought he made good sense about some "truths" - not all - just some.

michael

[comicallyinsane]

I'm not offended. I figure that those vegetarians that are high on themselves need to be shocked by something like this. I like to plant vegatable gardens for my fmaily but the bugs are a problem. I think the best way to deal with them is to grow in a green house. It won't get rid of the bugs but it will reduce them.

[MoonLgt]

Comic,

I grow Vegtables all year round. I don't use pesticides, but instead us companion plantings and other things that are good for the earth.

[comicallyinsane]

So how do you stop the bugs?

[MoonLgt]

Comic,
I don't, I just give them something else to munch on, Things like Marigolds - Aphids. Or I sometimes use Diatimatious Earth for Slugs and Snails, and Copper tubing for Ants. But my main source of Bug control is Birds, I keep a small refecting pond clean and a few sunflowers around. And they just love it. Every since I have invited them to come in , I have not had any real problems with bugs. May I also suggest that for really sweet tomatoes, don't move them around just add some leaf mulch over the winter. They will be twice as sweet the next year.

[Palzang]

I guess today is my day for Trungpa stories. The first time I saw Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche was when he came to Evanston (near Chicago) in 1975, I think it was. First off he gave an excellent teaching before he even came in the room. He was like an hour and a half late, and all the people who came in all spiritual and everything were ready to rip him apart when he finally waltzed in. I was sitting there thinking, "This is great!" So I immediately fell in love with him.

At the end of the talk, he took questions. One person asked if, as Buddhists, we shouldn't refrain from eating meat because it is killing. Trungpa replied, "Why? I have claws and fangs, don't I?"

And as for what the Buddha actually said about it, all he said was it's OK to eat meat unless it was killed specifically for you. And that only applies to ordained, those who keep the precepts.

By the way, are you aware how many sentient beings are killed when a field of, say, rice or corn is harvested? Is the life of an insect less valuable than the life of a cow or a chicken?


Palzang

[comicallyinsane]

I started a whole thread on the insects killed in a harvest. It got a lot of answers that said I was basically wrong.

[MoonLgt]

Comic,
you are not wrong, But what I don't understand is why people seem to put more value on Animals and Insects than they do Vegitation? Without Vegitation there would be no insects or animals. OR human kind for that matter. It is my belief that we need to consider all things Plant, Animal and Insect. Because without any one of these, we would not have the other.

[YogaMama]

MoonLgt - we also grow vegetables and herbs in our backyard and we do not use any pesticides. We use a lot of spiders! :)

I am vegetarian and feel that I need to "stick up" for some of us vegetarians. Not all vegetarins feel as though they are better than anyone else. It frustrates me when I read things about how vegetarians think they are better than everyone else because they do not eat meat, and that's just not true. It doesn't bother me if people eat meat, nor would I ever criticize anyone for what they eat. That's like criticizing someone for being a different religion than you...I just don't think it is right. I personally do not eat meat because it grosses me out. I can't stand to bite into a piece of flesh, let alone a piece of animal fat - YUCK. I don't put any more value on the life of a cow than I do on the life of an insect. Life is life. I try my best not to kill any living thing, but some things end up being killed in order to sustain our own lives. It is just a part of life.

[comicallyinsane]

Comic,
you are not wrong, But what I don't understand is why people seem to put more value on Animals and Insects than they do Vegitation? Without Vegitation there would be no insects or animals. OR human kind for that matter. It is my belief that we need to consider all things Plant, Animal and Insect. Because without any one of these, we would not have the other.



You have not read enough of my posts on this subject. I am a big defender of plantlife. I have made the argument that plants are actually enlightened beings that are here to keep us alive. The vegetable gladly gives it's life to save ours. But I also feel we should leave the plants alone. That's why we should eat more meat. :D

[kinlee]

You have not read enough of my posts on this subject. I am a big defender of plantlife. I have made the argument that plants are actually enlightened beings that are here to keep us alive. The vegetable gladly gives it's life to save ours. But I also feel we should leave the plants alone. That's why we should eat more meat. :D

I see your point, and yes I agree with you that plants are too enlightened beings. The reason why Buddhist take veg because vegetables/plants have lesser emotions than animals. Because, in the minds of animals especially at the point being slaughtered, they are more or less in pain/desperation/angry and probably die with a thought of revenge. This thought of anger and revenge is a seed that will have an karmic consequences of lost of live in future when condition arises.

An it is true that plants may feel the pain too, but it is signifcantly lesser than animals. :)

It is good to look at a bigger picture. What is at stake is enormous, because keeping large numbers of chickens in close confinement inevitably leads to diseases and big social problems (pollutions in water and air cause by the waste produced). We may be sealing our fate of obesity/cancers etc by what we eat. This is also a cause which overtime will have significant consequences, affecting not only us, but also our future generations to come.

cheers,

[kinlee]

Eating for Peace

A talk by the Buddhist teacher Thich Naht Hanh on Mindful Consumption

All things need food to be alive and to grow, including our love or our hate. Love is a living thing, hate is a living thing. If you do not nourish your love, it will die. If you cut the source of nutriment for your violence, your violence will also die. That is why the path shown by the Buddha is the path of mindful consumption.

The Buddha told the following story. There was a couple who wanted to cross the desert to go to another country in order to seek freedom. They brought with them their little boy and a quantity of food and water. But they did not calculate well, and that is why halfway through the desert they ran out of food, and they knew that they were going to die. So after a lot of anguish, they decided to eat the little boy so that they could survive and go to the other country, and that's what they did. And every time they ate a piece of flesh from their son, they cried.

The Buddha asked his monks, "My dear friends: Do you think that the couple enjoyed eating the flesh of their son?" The Buddha said, "It is impossible to enjoy eating the flesh of our son. If you do not eat mindfully, you are eating the flesh of your son and daughter, you are eating the flesh of your parent."

If we look deeply, we will see that eating can be extremely violent. UNESCO tells us that every day, forty thousand children in the world die because of a lack of nutrition, of food. Every day, forty thousand children. And the amount of grain that we grow in the West is mostly used to feed our cattle. Eighty percent of the corn grown in this country is to feed the cattle to make meat. Ninety-five percent of the oats produced in this country is not for us to eat, but for the animals raised for food. According to this recent report that we received of all the agricultural land in the US, eighty-seven percent is used to raise animals for food. That is forty-five percent of the total land mass in the US.

More than half of all the water consumed in the US whole purpose is to raise animals for food. It takes 2500 gallons of water to produce a pound of meat, but only 25 gallons to produce a pound of wheat. A totally vegetarian diet requires 300 gallons of water per day, while a meat-eating diet requires more than 4000 gallons of water per day.

Raising animals for food causes more water pollution than any other industry in the US because animals raised for food produce one hundred thirty times the excrement of the entire human population. It means 87,000 pounds per second. Much of the waste from factory farms and slaughter houses flows into streams and rivers, contaminating water sources.

Each vegetarian can save one acre of trees per year. More than 260 million acres of US forests have been cleared to grow crops to feed animals raised for meat. And another acre of trees disappears every eight seconds. The tropical rain forests are also being destroyed to create grazing land for cattle.

In the US, animals raised for food are fed more than eighty percent of the corn we grow and more than ninety-five percent of the oats. We are eating our country, we are eating our earth, we are eating our children. And I have learned that more than half the people in this country overeat.

Mindful eating can help maintain compassion within our heart. A person without compassion cannot be happy, cannot relate to other human beings and to other living beings. And eating the flesh of our own son is what is going on in the world, because we do not practice mindful eating.

The Buddha spoke about the second kind of food that we consume every day -- sense impressions -- the kind of food that we take in by the way of the eyes, the ears, the tongue, the body, and the mind. When we read a magazine, we consume. When you watch television, you consume. When you listen to a conversation, you consume. And these items can be highly toxic. There may be a lot of poisons, like craving, like violence, like anger, and despair. We allow ourselves to be intoxicated by what we consume in terms of sense impressions. We allow our children to intoxicate themselves because of these products. That is why it is very important to look deeply into our ill-being, into the nature of our ill-being, in order to recognize the sources of nutriment we have used to bring it into us and into our society.

The Buddha had this to say: "What has come to be - if you know how to look deeply into its nature and identify its source of nutriment, you are already on the path of emancipation." What has come to be is our illness, our ill-being, our suffering, our violence, our despair. And if you practice looking deeply, meditation, you'll be able to identify the sources of nutriments, of food, that has brought it into us.

Therefore the whole nation has to practice looking deeply into the nature of what we consume every day. And consuming mindfully is the only way to protect our nation, ourselves, and our society. We have to learn how to consume mindfully as a family, as a city, as a nation. We have to learn what to produce and what not to produce in order to provide our people with only the items that are nourishing and healing. We have to refrain from producing the kinds of items that bring war and despair into our body, into our consciousness, and into the collective body and consciousness of our nation, our society. And Congress has to practice that. We have elected members of the Congress. We expect them to practice deeply, listening to the suffering of the people, to the real causes of that suffering, and to make the kind of laws that can protect us from self-destruction. And America is great. I have the conviction that you can do it and help the world. You can offer the world wisdom, mindfulness, and compassion.

Nowadays I enjoy places where people do not smoke. There are nonsmoking flights that you can enjoy. Ten years ago they did not exist, nonsmoking flights. And in America on every box of cigarettes there is the message: "Beware: Smoking can be hazardous to your health." That is a bell of mindfulness. That is the practice of mindful consumption. You do not say that you are practicing mindfulness, but you are really practicing mindfulness. Mindfulness of smoking is what allowed you to see that smoking is not healthy.

In America, people are very aware of the food they eat. They want every package of food to be labeled so that they can know what is in it. They don't want to eat the kind of food that will bring toxins and poisons into their bodies. This is the practice of mindful eating.

But we can go further. We can do better, as parents, as teachers, as artists and as politicians. If you are a teacher, you can contribute a lot in awakening people of the need for mindful consumption, because that is the way to real emancipation. If you are a journalist, you have the means to educate people, to wake people up to the nature of our situation. Every one of us can transform himself or herself into a bodhisattva doing the work of awakening. Because only awakening can help us to stop the course we are taking, the course of destruction. Then we will know in which direction we should go to make the earth a safe place for us, for our children, and for their children.

Extracted from http://www.foodrevolution.org/eatingforpeace.htm

[YogaMama]

What a great article - thank you! :)

[YogaMama]

I am reading a great book right now called "The Zen of Eating". I am only on about page 25, but it is an excellent book. I highly recommend it to anyone interested in the subject of how what we eat affects us differently and how to better practice "mindful eating".

[buddhafoot]

I was reading a great post by kinlee about the eating of meat, animals raised for this purpose and other things that we do that are "not right mindedness".

So... you know me - I thought I would add some of my thoughts .... YET AGAIN!!!!!


The eating of food, in the way our civilization is today, brings about death. If you are not growing your own vegetables - animals are dying in the process of your food being made - whether it be plant or animal life. If you have not planted the plants yourself and harvested them - you really have no idea what is happening.
Maybe we should just quit raising grain and such that is used for animal feed. A lot of this type of crop is not suitable for human consumption and probably couldn't be used - unless it was processed in a way to make it "funtionally consumable" for the human digestive system.
Millions of animals are killed each year with the harvesting of crops. Many "corporations" and even private land-owners hire people to kill pesky vermin like deer, elk, rabbits, etc that are destroying their "cash" crops. Not to mention animals that are killed from the combines. Just think of all the chickens that are kept in cages where they can't even move - living in enclosed buildings with "unnatural lighting" that screws up their system into thinking a "day" is only eight hours - so they produce more eggs. In cages where their feet are deformed and grow "into" the cages - from being forced to stand their entire life. Even if you use "naturally nested" eggs - what about the products that are made from the eggs of "non naturally nested" chickens?
We should also stop killing animals that are used for the harvest of various chemicals that we use, as humans, to heal ourselves. Why are these animals lives not as precious as ours? Or the lives of our cats and dogs? Why should they be killed or bred in captivity for the harvesting of, oh let's say, insulen - so that we or our pets can live?
Countless animals and species die as rain forests are cleared for corporate hamburger joints to make new room for cattle to be raise. The same corporations that provide us with our "vegetarian meals".
Not to mention that once these areas of rain forest are cleared - the land is basically ruined forever. The rainforests were developed over millinea - they can't just be torn down and raise back up at will.

How do people prepare for the work day? Have the products that you are using to shave the whiskers off of your face, hold your hair in place, keep your armpits from smelling, to give you "longer, lusher lasting looking eyelashes" or "deep long lasting color to keep you looking young!" been tested on animals? What happens to it when you wash it down the drain in the sink or tub? What about the testing of these things on animals? Sprays and chemicals directly applied to open wounds or eyes of animals trapped in labratories?

Or cleaning our clothes? The spot cleaners? The dry cleaners? The soaps and suds we put into tubs of water that just get dumped into our water systems? Or driving our cars? Driving our cars that drip and leak and sputter? Have you ever seen rain water running off from parking lots? Or what abbut fertilizing our lawns? Or food and household items that come in these really great plastic bags that we just throw in the garbage that gets thrown into a hole that doesn't deteriorate for thousands of years? Or the "throw-away" tupperware-like products that can just be "tossed" for conveniences sake? Or the batteries that won't run our toys anymore - we just chuck them in the garbage - which eventually leak into our land and water systems? Or tires from our cars that we drive? Why do tires go bald? Where does the tire go to? It just doesn't disappear.
Just think about the amount of garbage each one of us generates in a week or a month? Where does that go? Do you ensure that it's being properly disposed of? Or the water we waste on keeping our lawns to keep them green. Think of the thousands, if not millions, of people that don't have clean drinking water - and all the water we're hogging. America is a country glutted on the wasted use of electricity, water, power, fuel, etc.

It's my thinking that there is too much emphasis put on things that are now politically incorrect. We get up in arms about smoking and eating meat - when there are hundreds, if not thousands, of things we do on a daily, weekly and yearly basis that are just as harmful.
I have friends who smoke. I used to smoke years ago. I recognize that smoking is bad for you. I also recognize that people who smoke know it's bad for them.
But, did you know that any foreign agent in your lungs really isn't good for you? Wood from hobbyists or laborers sanding without protection? Cleaners, fumes, particulates, etc. Incense? How can inhaling smoke from incense be good for a person? But I believe that a lot of people take up the banner of not smoking and use it to look down on people that do. Smokers are just not people who are hurting themselves. They're below us. They're looked at, by some, with ridicule and vulgarity.

Buddha lived in a time of great suffering. People had to work, and work hard, just to get by. There were no supermarkets, no bistros, no Subways, no McDonalds, no Starbucks - if you didn't raise it or couldn't buy it from someone who did - you eventually died.

I don't think Buddha could have envisioned a world like the world we live in today. I think his lessons would have changed in many ways. Ways that make us look past the pleasant packaging of our favorite foods - our new and improved cleaners - our lush, green weed free lawns - our meatier tasting cat foods - our more manly smell - our active and energetic lifestyles - our longer lasting color - our medications that keep us living longer - our medications that kill the condition that could kill us (just think of all the chemicals used in the making of more chemicals for us to ingest! - when really, if we lived in Buddha's time - we would have just died) - our favorite sit-com - our best selling novel - our internet connectivity - our favorite carbonated beverage - I can keep going here....

While I believe that we should be mindful - I don't think being mindful in ways that "suit what we like to or dislike to do" is actually being mindful.

Being mindful should start and reflect in all manners of our lives. What we ingest, what we excrete. What we keep, what we throw away. And not taking the time to figure out where all of these niceties come from is not being mindful. Being ignorant of how we come by everything that makes "our" life comfortable is not being mindful. Just because you are ignorant of how your food comes to you, where you get your power, what the corporations do that provide you with the things "you" want - doesn't mean that you aren't supporting it.

I'll get off my soap-box now...

Michael

[YogaMama]

You make some very good points. The fact is that humans destroy the world in which we live more and more each day. There is no way around it...all we can do is try our hardest to do our part to conserve earth as much as possible. It makes me feel good when I walk out to my garden to pick the veggies we are going to eat, but then there I feel bad about getting in my car and driving to work the next day and harming the environment. You just can't get around harming the environment in some ways!

[buddhafoot]

I know. It sucks.

When I was writing that - I was initially just trying to make some points regarding being a omnivore -vs- herbivore.

But then, as I kept writing, I kept thinking of more and more things that I do in my life that have consequences that I really don't pay any attention to.

I just have a sinking feeling that there are so many things that humans/I do that do not have good karma associated with them. I also think "right mindedness" must include deciding not to be ignorant of these things and do what you can to prevent them.

I was just reading an article about old computers. Old computers that many companies send over to 3rd world countries - because there is land to store them. Huge valleys of old computers nobody wants anymore. And the people that have to live there - or choose to live there - in awful conditions that try to squeeze out a living by burning precious metals off of computer boards with toxic acids and such. It just made me feel awful.
I've also read that the "computer" industry is one of the "dirtiest" industries in modern times. All the plastic packaging and stuff that really isn't degradable in any realistic sense.

I need a drink.

Michael

[YogaMama]

Ugh...that article about old computers is awful! I can't believe that actually happens. Yesterday, my husband and I took our daughter to a really nice park by our house that we always go to. There is this beautiful little pond and the same 4 ducks are always there, so we always feed them. Well, we walked down to the pond, and someone had obviously been fishing there. They left a bunch of fishing line just laying all over the pier, they drank an entire case of water and decided to throw all 12 empty bottles into the pond, along with some beer and soda cans, and all of the plastic wrapping that the water came in. I was so upset! How could anyone do that?? And one of the ducks was suddenly injured, so I am not sure if that same person did something to one of the ducks. We picked up all of their trash but could not get all of the water bottles, and we threw it all away in a garbage can that was right near the park. I get so upset when I see that stuff!

[buddhafoot]

This wasn't the original article I read - nor the original image I saw. The original image I saw looked like the area of 3 or 4 football fields filled with old computers and computer junk.

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2002/02/25/computer-waste.htm

Michael

[YogaMama]

That entire article is sad, but this part is really sad:

"Other laborers, making $1.50 a day and working with little or no protection, burned plastics and circuit boards or poured acid on electronic parts to extract silver and gold. Many pried open printer cartridges — whose hazards are uncertain — and smashed lead-laden cathode ray tubes from computer monitors, the report said."

[emmak]

Buddhafoot - it is people like you that have given me phobia of cancer, paranoia about what I eat. :) Although I am grateful for information, the more I learn the more I am terrified! I use SLS and paraben free products, I don't eat meat, I feed my daughter free range and organic, I use cloth nappies and recycle the water out of the shower for the nappy bucket. And yet it is still not enough!! And if my neighbor doesnt do the same, I wonder what the point is...

[Madeleine]

I was reading a great post by kinlee about the eating of meat, animals raised for this purpose and other things that we do that are "not right mindedness".

So... you know me - I thought I would add some of my thoughts .... YET AGAIN!!!!!


The eating of food, in the way our civilization is today, brings about death. If you are not growing your own vegetables - animals are dying in the process of your food being made - whether it be plant or animal life. If you have not planted the plants yourself and harvested them - you really have no idea what is happening.
Maybe we should just quit raising grain and such that is used for animal feed. A lot of this type of crop is not suitable for human consumption and probably couldn't be used - unless it was processed in a way to make it "funtionally consumable" for the human digestive system.
Millions of animals are killed each year with the harvesting of crops. Many "corporations" and even private land-owners hire people to kill pesky vermin like deer, elk, rabbits, etc that are destroying their "cash" crops. Not to mention animals that are killed from the combines. Just think of all the chickens that are kept in cages where they can't even move - living in enclosed buildings with "unnatural lighting" that screws up their system into thinking a "day" is only eight hours - so they produce more eggs. In cages where their feet are deformed and grow "into" the cages - from being forced to stand their entire life. Even if you use "naturally nested" eggs - what about the products that are made from the eggs of "non naturally nested" chickens?
We should also stop killing animals that are used for the harvest of various chemicals that we use, as humans, to heal ourselves. Why are these animals lives not as precious as ours? Or the lives of our cats and dogs? Why should they be killed or bred in captivity for the harvesting of, oh let's say, insulen - so that we or our pets can live?
Countless animals and species die as rain forests are cleared for corporate hamburger joints to make new room for cattle to be raise. The same corporations that provide us with our "vegetarian meals".
Not to mention that once these areas of rain forest are cleared - the land is basically ruined forever. The rainforests were developed over millinea - they can't just be torn down and raise back up at will.

How do people prepare for the work day? Have the products that you are using to shave the whiskers off of your face, hold your hair in place, keep your armpits from smelling, to give you "longer, lusher lasting looking eyelashes" or "deep long lasting color to keep you looking young!" been tested on animals? What happens to it when you wash it down the drain in the sink or tub? What about the testing of these things on animals? Sprays and chemicals directly applied to open wounds or eyes of animals trapped in labratories?

Or cleaning our clothes? The spot cleaners? The dry cleaners? The soaps and suds we put into tubs of water that just get dumped into our water systems? Or driving our cars? Driving our cars that drip and leak and sputter? Have you ever seen rain water running off from parking lots? Or what abbut fertilizing our lawns? Or food and household items that come in these really great plastic bags that we just throw in the garbage that gets thrown into a hole that doesn't deteriorate for thousands of years? Or the "throw-away" tupperware-like products that can just be "tossed" for conveniences sake? Or the batteries that won't run our toys anymore - we just chuck them in the garbage - which eventually leak into our land and water systems? Or tires from our cars that we drive? Why do tires go bald? Where does the tire go to? It just doesn't disappear.
Just think about the amount of garbage each one of us generates in a week or a month? Where does that go? Do you ensure that it's being properly disposed of? Or the water we waste on keeping our lawns to keep them green. Think of the thousands, if not millions, of people that don't have clean drinking water - and all the water we're hogging. America is a country glutted on the wasted use of electricity, water, power, fuel, etc.

It's my thinking that there is too much emphasis put on things that are now politically incorrect. We get up in arms about smoking and eating meat - when there are hundreds, if not thousands, of things we do on a daily, weekly and yearly basis that are just as harmful.
I have friends who smoke. I used to smoke years ago. I recognize that smoking is bad for you. I also recognize that people who smoke know it's bad for them.
But, did you know that any foreign agent in your lungs really isn't good for you? Wood from hobbyists or laborers sanding without protection? Cleaners, fumes, particulates, etc. Incense? How can inhaling smoke from incense be good for a person? But I believe that a lot of people take up the banner of not smoking and use it to look down on people that do. Smokers are just not people who are hurting themselves. They're below us. They're looked at, by some, with ridicule and vulgarity.

Buddha lived in a time of great suffering. People had to work, and work hard, just to get by. There were no supermarkets, no bistros, no Subways, no McDonalds, no Starbucks - if you didn't raise it or couldn't buy it from someone who did - you eventually died.

I don't think Buddha could have envisioned a world like the world we live in today. I think his lessons would have changed in many ways. Ways that make us look past the pleasant packaging of our favorite foods - our new and improved cleaners - our lush, green weed free lawns - our meatier tasting cat foods - our more manly smell - our active and energetic lifestyles - our longer lasting color - our medications that keep us living longer - our medications that kill the condition that could kill us (just think of all the chemicals used in the making of more chemicals for us to ingest! - when really, if we lived in Buddha's time - we would have just died) - our favorite sit-com - our best selling novel - our internet connectivity - our favorite carbonated beverage - I can keep going here....

While I believe that we should be mindful - I don't think being mindful in ways that "suit what we like to or dislike to do" is actually being mindful.

Being mindful should start and reflect in all manners of our lives. What we ingest, what we excrete. What we keep, what we throw away. And not taking the time to figure out where all of these niceties come from is not being mindful. Being ignorant of how we come by everything that makes "our" life comfortable is not being mindful. Just because you are ignorant of how your food comes to you, where you get your power, what the corporations do that provide you with the things "you" want - doesn't mean that you aren't supporting it.

I'll get off my soap-box now...

Michael



I was thingking of writing something like that, but I see you where faster than me, and you made some points(???) that I think I wouldnt have come up with :bigclap: , I think I will try to eat and live in a way that is better for nature now and I will pray for that others will to :sweflag:
:winkc: //Madeleine

[buddhafoot]

Buddhafoot - it is people like you that have given me phobia of cancer, paranoia about what I eat. :) Although I am grateful for information, the more I learn the more I am terrified! I use SLS and paraben free products, I don't eat meat, I feed my daughter free range and organic, I use cloth nappies and recycle the water out of the shower for the nappy bucket. And yet it is still not enough!! And if my neighbor doesnt do the same, I wonder what the point is...

I don't want anyone to get the idea that I'm somehow preaching and that I am also practicing what I'm preaching. That is not the case. I was only putting some information out on the table for people to think about. I have no High Horse - just in case you were wondering.

Emmck - that is truly amazing. Even that you're taking time to recycle water and such - I really commend you.

As for "and if my neighbor doesn't do the same" - I can understand what you mean. But, by sharing your information - maybe someone else will use one of your ideas. Then that's 2 people doing it. It may take a long time but eventually - things may catch on. I know it's given me something to think about (use of water, recycling water, etc.)

Thanks!

Michael

[MoonLgt]

Buddhafoot,
You Make some very good points. But in the county I live -in we are very mindful about what we are doing. For instance, did anyone know that recycling your waste can help boost your income? Here, you can get 1.25 a pound for Aluminum cans, $.05 per pound for plastics and Paper and Cardboard?

We are allowed to use what has becomed grey water on our lawns. ( water from your washing machine, Dishwasher. Etc. Recyled Tires become new roads. and old computer parts are refurbished and given to schools to hand out to students who can not afford them.
Our newspaper are pringted on Biodegradable paper with soy ink, so that they can be used in many different ways. Our county has reduced it's solid waste by over 50 tons this year alone.

I also try to buy only the enviromentally friendly products, Such as the new wood that is made out of plastic ( For my Vegtable beds) It doesn't break down and is not treated with Arsonic. It also looks very nice.
As for my utilites, I know how they are made and as soon as I can get enough money saved I will be putting on a solar roof ( that is if the home owners association will allow it) . I am also building a green house that will be heated from my dryer vent.

I grow alot of Herbs for both Medicinal as well as flavoring for my foods. And most of my own Vegtables. Composting kitchen waste. There are alot more things that I do to help out mother earth as well as my own pocket book.
It doesn't take alot of effort once you get started. And it is a really good feeling knowing that you are doing something good to help our planet.

[YogaMama]

MoonLgt - you are very lucky to live in a county like that! I, on the other hand, live in a veyr backwards state (which is why we are moving!) and they do not even offer Recycling! If you want ot recycle, you have to do it on your own - they do not provide the means to have the recycled items picked up - you have to find a recycling center in another area! Nice, huh?

My husband and I have a compost "pile" in our backyard - it is great. And we use it to grow our own veggies - I love being to go in the backyard and pick our own veggies! Anyways...kudos to you for all that you are doing!

[Elohim]

Yes, I agree that California is very environmentally friendly. There are a lot of conservation-minded people here. I hope that one day some of the things they do around here will catch on to other states as well. There seems to be more of an emphasis on recycling, organic produce, free range animals, farmer's markets, etc. here. Many of these things I had never really heard of in Michigan (i.e. free range animals for one, I never honestly knew where my meat came from or how it was produced). I think that maybe the communities here are very proactive and so more people have access to these ideas. No matter what a persons effort towards the planet is, I believe that every little thing helps in the long run. People say it's a waste of time, but I disagree. If more people became involved in these things then there would be more pressure on the legislatures and big companies to make these solutions more cost effective. The bigger the demand the bigger the results, that's capitalism right? If there was a bigger demand for recycling, less polution, free ranged animals, etc. it would become cheaper so that more people could afford to participate. Once the majority says, "We want better products, we want less polution, we want more recycling, we want fresh organic produce, we want a healthier planet." then the big wigs of the government and industry will have listen.

*stepping down off my soap-box*

That's my opinion anyway. :)

[comicallyinsane]

I live in central California in a farming community. There are farmers markets everywhere.

[buddhafoot]

Yet another person that does so much more than I do.

Congrats to you too!

Michael

[buddhafoot]

Elohim just keeps stealing MY soapbox...

Michael

[Elohim]

Hehehe sorry...

[River]

MoonLgt - you are very lucky to live in a county like that! I, on the other hand, live in a veyr backwards state (which is why we are moving!) and they do not even offer Recycling! If you want ot recycle, you have to do it on your own - they do not provide the means to have the recycled items picked up - you have to find a recycling center in another area! Nice, huh?

My husband and I have a compost "pile" in our backyard - it is great. And we use it to grow our own veggies - I love being to go in the backyard and pick our own veggies! Anyways...kudos to you for all that you are doing!


Well I for one dont feel backwards.

Deffenbaugh Disposal Service
(913) 631-3300
Curbside recycling and yard waste

[MoonLgt]

Yogamama,
I don't use curbside recycling. Because themn the money just goes back to the city or county and they still charge me for the pick-up . I just load up my trunk once a week and take it to the center myself. This way I can help my pocket book and not the county or city ( which gets the money from both me and the recycling). All my money that i collect from it is currently going into my savings account for the new roof.

[YogaMama]

Well I for one dont feel backwards.

Deffenbaugh Disposal Service
(913) 631-3300
Curbside recycling and yard waste

River...I apologize if I offended you...that certainly was not my intention. Blue Springs seems to be very different than Lee's Summit, where you are. We lived in Lee's Summit for a while and liked it, but don't really care for Blue Springs. Blue Springs does not offer Recycling...that's what we were told anyways! It's just really different here in Missouri than it was in Arizona..Again, sorry if I offended you....I truly apologize.

[YogaMama]

Yogamama,
I don't use curbside recycling. Because themn the money just goes back to the city or county and they still charge me for the pick-up . I just load up my trunk once a week and take it to the center myself. This way I can help my pocket book and not the county or city ( which gets the money from both me and the recycling). All my money that i collect from it is currently going into my savings account for the new roof.

Hmmmm...hadn't thought about that. Thanks for the tip!

[River]

I wasnt offended. I was just trying to point out that we are "Missouri". If you are looking for ozark hillbillies you will find them, but if you are looking for openminded forward thinking individuals you can find them too. The great thing about the Kansas City metro area is if you dont like the dynamic of a certain city just drive 10 miles and you are in a completely different city.

I also like MoonLgt load up about once a week and take my recycling to the local recycling center. I also take some for my friends and family. I have even bought some of them containers that they can just throw their recycling in and I will sort it for them getting them to recycle when they otherwise wouldnt.

[YogaMama]

You are right - Missouri definitely has its share of open-minded, forward thinking individuals as well and it was wrong of me to group everyone together.

Would you mind telling me what Recycling Center you go to? I would like to start doing the same. Thanks!

[River]

Lee's Summit Resource Recovery Park
Recycling & Compost
2101 SE Hamblin Road
969-7516


This might be of some help http://www.bluespringsgov.com/frames/frame_recycle.htm

[YogaMama]

Ahhh well...would you look at that?? Blue Springs DOES recycle! I wish I would have looked more into it sooner! Thanks so much.

[comicallyinsane]

What's wrong with being a hillbilly? :buck:

[River]

Well I'll tell you as soon as I fix the buckle on the strap of my overalls and find my other shoe.

[comicallyinsane]

You have more than one shoe?

[YogaMama]

What's wrong with being a hillbilly? :buck:

And I'll tell you after I brush my TOOTH.

[YogaMama]

You have more than one shoe?

There you go making us all laugh again , Comic. :buck: I like the hillbilly face.

[comicallyinsane]

I've got 2 teeth. One in mouth and one in mypocket. They call me chomper. :buck:

[YogaMama]

How do you eat all that meat without teeth? :)

[River]

Its about time someone brought this thread back on topic.

[YogaMama]

Eating meat, recycling, hillbillies...it's all the same, isn't it?? :)

[River]

So true, so true.

[comicallyinsane]

This topic is about murdering vegetarians and passive meat eaters. Hillbillies are people, too.


I just put myother tooth back in to eat. :buck:

[emmak]

I've got 2 teeth. One in mouth and one in mypocket. They call me chomper. :buck:
Really?

[YogaMama]

This topic is about murdering vegetarians and passive meat eaters.

Real nice, Bucky.

[comicallyinsane]

Yes nothing screams louder than a vegetable being ripped form the ground.

[emmak]

What about eggs? Are they not failed reproductive vehicles of hens?

[comicallyinsane]

Maybe. I like eggs. They are yummy.

[enan]

Yes, yummy i love eggs too...ok back to the topic. I'm trying to become a vegatarian...maybe a fruitarian. I believe in taking food that wants us to eat them like fruits, because we can spread they're seeds. lol also milks is ok to me and eggs.Ok, I can get my protein from eggs, calcium from milk, and vitamins from fruits. :p

[comicallyinsane]

Well I am allergic to fruits and vegetables so my diet is limited if I turn down meat. I have started drinking more protein shakes instead of eating meat. One day at a time.

[enan]

Well, there's a delemma. You know comicallyinsane you can eat whatever you want. I just think it's sad when we eat meat and not respect the animal that died. I respect the native americans though. They eat meat and uses every parts. Now in today society the way the animals are killed. :bawling: It's personnel because i love animals.lol but i'm guilty too because i sometimes in indulge in fried chicken, and i'll cry. :skeptical

[kinlee]

Interesting materials at http://www.drba.org/dharma/veggie/kindness.asp

[melancholie]

thanks to this conversation [and some further research that followed] i wasn't able to eat meat within the last couple of days. i've tried for years "to get off" the meat but actually never saw a reason to do so.

my mother always says "you are what you eat". she is a vegetarian and took away any prejudices a long time ago.

i've looked at the documentary of the "baskin robins" son and found it fascinating. something seems to be wrong [with our society] if the food pyramid is promoted by the dairy industry... i also saw the PETA movie, where the tyson employees just rip off the chickens' heads. that really robbed me off the illusion that i am eating something that has been involved in some cruel and brutal practices.

through my doctor, who takes a holistic (and ayurvedic) approach, i have learned that your diet can make a huge difference in your well being. i have suffered from back pain for years and she told me to reduce my dairy intake, as well as cutting out red meat, bananas, grapes, wheat and peanuts, since all of those groceries produce fluids, and this is a great way to keep my back pain under control. much better than taking pain killers!

thank you all for this!

[kinlee]

thanks to this conversation [and some further research that followed] i wasn't able to eat meat within the last couple of days. i've tried for years "to get off" the meat but actually never saw a reason to do so.

my mother always says "you are what you eat". she is a vegetarian and took away any prejudices a long time ago.

i've looked at the documentary of the "baskin robins" son and found it fascinating. something seems to be wrong [with our society] if the food pyramid is promoted by the dairy industry... i also saw the PETA movie, where the tyson employees just rip off the chickens' heads. that really robbed me off the illusion that i am eating something that has been involved in some cruel and brutal practices.

through my doctor, who takes a holistic (and ayurvedic) approach, i have learned that your diet can make a huge difference in your well being. i have suffered from back pain for years and she told me to reduce my dairy intake, as well as cutting out red meat, bananas, grapes, wheat and peanuts, since all of those groceries produce fluids, and this is a great way to keep my back pain under control. much better than taking pain killers!

thank you all for this!


Excellent!
There are two books you can try to borrow from the library by John Robbins (son of baskin robins)
1. Diet for a New America (There is a video version, which you have already watched at PetaTV)
2. Food Revolution

Much of his material can be found at http://www.foodrevolution.org

cheers,

[melancholie]

i already have the "diet for a new america", haven't read it though (always wondered "who the heck ordered that..." guess, it was me after all *grin*). i'm feeling so good, it is unbelievable! not only because the concience is at ease but also because there seems to be some kind of detachment from the food itself.

thank you very much!

[MoonLgt]

Kinlee,

That Site you gave was Really Cool. Thanks

[kinlee]

Kinlee,

That Site you gave was Really Cool. Thanks

My pleasure. :)
His life story in really interesting. Just like Price Siddarthda, he gave up a life of luxury for the betterment of all beings.

I am still trying hard to be a vegetarian. The "Diet for a New American" documentary impacted me. Really no meat, only vegetables, during the last two years of the Chinese New year (15 days each). Most of my other friends were feasting with scrumptious chinese delicacies.

cheers,

[melancholie]

i'm sitting @ the sushi place yesterday and while my husband was chewing on a chicken liver i was wondering what mr. roberts says about fish... what does PETA say about fish? i couldn't find anything on their website.

[kinlee]

i'm sitting @ the sushi place yesterday and while my husband was chewing on a chicken liver i was wondering what mr. roberts says about fish... what does PETA say about fish? i couldn't find anything on their website.

I've came across a spectacular docmentary from Vegetarian Society in Britain. Narrated by Paul